Interview with Mary O’Connell on her book The Country Of Our Dreams by Zita Fogarty
Mary O'Connell came to my attention when I read her latest book. The Country of Our Dreams centres on the relationship between a contemporary couple in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs, Hilary and Vianney. Hilary hails from a family in ‘the Shire’ suffering from 'cultural amnesia'. Vianney is a brooding, romantic figure of Irish rebel ancestry, living with depression.
The book juxtaposes two worlds: twenty-first century Australia and nineteenth century Ireland during the Irish Land Wars, one generation after the Great Famine. It gallops along and had me transfixed from the get-go. What I love most is Mary's attention to detail, her evocative sense of place, and how she merges these worlds into a seamless narrative.
Mary describes herself on her website as 'a Taranaki born, Sydney based writer, editor, historian and community arts organiser, with particular interest in matters of the spirit.' She also has a PhD in History. Unsurprisingly, her other books have historical roots: The King's Daughter is about twelfth-century mystic and musician Hildegard of Bingen (garnering praise in the Sydney Morning Herald); and her PhD work, Our Lady of Coogee, centres on the young Irish-Australian mystic Eileen O'Connor.
Authors Tom Kenneally and Stephanie Dowrick both endorse and admire the work. Says Kenneally: “this skilfully-told novel is an unfamiliar tale of intense narrative interest, but also a significant case of the triumph of moral resistance over the forces of violent repression and violent resistance.” And Dowrick: “...O'Connell has the finest gifts of the diaspora Irish: passion, intelligence, humour and rebellion. She brings all that – and more – to these pages. I loved it.”
There is no shortage of heroines in The Country of our Dreams, notably the women of the Ladies Land League, an organisation spearheaded by sisters Anna and Fannie Parnell. At the time Anna was likened to Joan of Arc in New York's The Irish World. They led a political movement against the landlords of Ireland, attracting international attention, and raised funds to shelter evicted tenants.
The heroines aren’t all past either. Hilary's climactic announcement towards the end of the novel makes her a heroine in my eyes too – I'll spare the details for fear of spoilers! There are heroes as well, most noticeably Michael Davitt, leader of the Irish Land League. Though an unlikely hero for the times – maimed, poor, itinerant, against combat as a means for retribution –he championed the women in his life at every opportunity. About his mother he said: “She never allowed herself to be conquered...She met every reverse and beat down despair, even in the darkest hours.” Reading this in Sydney, in the year of disasters, felt strangely comforting.
There were other moments of cultural recognition and delight, such as the interchange between Vianney's sister and their sister-in-law, who opined that the time of The Sullivans is over in Australian storytelling: “I hadn't noticed they've asked you [Anglo] guys to shut up yet...Personally if I see another program about the fucking Tudors on the ABC, I'll scream my fucking head off.”
I wanted to know about the process of writing such a feisty, rebellious book. Mary graciously accepted my request for an interview in the early weeks of lockdowns and working from home. We video-chatted, me from my dining table, her from her writing desk in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs, 25km away.
Mary greeted me across 'cyber-space' – pixie-haired, lipsticked, wearing a vibrant necklace. Fairy lights winked at me in the background; my eye roved across a colourful collection of books and artworks. She was seated next to an open window, the autumn sun streaming in.
How did the book begin?
“The book started from a narrow perspective. I wanted to focus on Irish heritage; to explore how we cross that divide, especially with regard to the 'Anglo' culture that Australia once identified as. My intention was to portray what it is like to be of Irish descent three, four or even five generations in, and how that plays out in contemporary life.
It wasn't long before the historical characters arrived. They invited themselves! I hadn't heard of the Land Wars when I started writing. I intended for Vianney to have dreams of being a script writer, but his main focus was going to be the Irish Famine. He would locate that cataclysmic event as the ancestral wound, the source of his, he believes, inherited depressions.
I did not intend for the Irish history to take up such a large part of the book. It's now become a 'licorice allsort' book, straddling two worlds.”
Your writing style is very evocative, reminiscent of Helen Garner's style in places, especially when you are describing the natural surroundings.
“Well thank you for the compliment! Garner manages to evoke so much in so few words. I think I’m a bit wordier. I wanted the text to be beautiful. People have commented that 'it's a love letter to the Eastern Suburbs.' It wasn't conscious; it was more the beauty of the world we all live in that I wanted to recreate.”
Tell me about the process of writing the book. Was it long?
“It was a gradual process, seven years in total, in-between paid work commitments and other projects. I worked four days a week, and generally Friday was my writing day of the week. I also took annual leave from my job to write. Other people went to Bali. I went to 1881!
I never used to pressure myself if the words wouldn't come. I might spend time researching and filing and consider that part of the writing work for that day. Filing is hugely useful for feeding your subconscious! I keep expanding files for articles and clippings, I write down my aims and problem solve, and plan chapters on an excel spreadsheet. I don't use any fancy writing software!
As any writer will tell you, writing is very immersive. You can't plan a dinner party and write on the same day. I usually mix the writing up with pleasurable tasks such as going for a swim, or to the movies. I live and write in the same space. I'm motivated but not necessarily disciplined! I type drafts straight into the computer and edit from there as I have terrible handwriting!”
The vernacular is so authentic. I surmised that the intertwining stories were planned from the start. You provide a dramatic sense of time and place.
“The collective unconscious helped! For the historical characters in this book I tried putting the words they wrote into their mouths. So a lot of what Michael Davitt and Anna Parnell say in the book is what they actually wrote.
I also sourced a lot of information about the Land Wars from nineteenth century sources such as Katharine Tynan's memoir (she was a Ladies Land League member). And for the men's side, Irish MP Tim Healy's Letters and Leaders of My Day.”
How did Hilary evolve?
“One publisher couldn't tolerate Hilary's lack of guts, thought she was a 'loser'. I was annoyed that Hilary had to fit a feisty feminine archetype, when she was just enmeshed with a charismatic, self-centred man. Who hasn’t been there! As a result I created the 'Singing Chapter' as I call it (Chapter 55), wherein Hilary challenges herself and goes through a metamorphosis: Here she was. Hilary Barton from the Shire, a Dusty Springfield crochet cream dress with Dusty mascara and little wildflowers in her hair, singing with the Amy Winehouse of Coogee. Singing in an eternity of fear and clarity.
When Vianney leaves she has a chance to get some space and think clearly about their situation, plus develop a relationship with his family on her terms.”
Did Vianney just 'arrive' in your subconscious? Or was he always there?
“I guess you could say he was waiting in the wings! I’ve had mixed reactions from readers about his character. A lot of men don’t like him! They like Hilary, and get annoyed with Vianney. I think that’s sweet.”
How did you approach research?
“I did a lot of research! A lot! I bought loads of books, but thankfully access to the UNSW library has also been an essential part of the process. I sourced out-of-print books through ABE books in the UK. And the internet is such a boon! There was nobody in the Irish historical segments that didn't exist. As an historian I was keen on the truth.”
How did you get Stephanie Dowrick and Tom Kenneally to endorse it?
“I'm fortunate to have an existing relationship with Stephanie. She is the mentor of my writing group and gave me some excellent advice: seek another endorsement, otherwise people would automatically think it is a spiritual book!
Tom Kenneally was very open and generous; though I had to be brave when I approached him – he is so high-profile in this country and possesses such formidable writing authority.
I sent him the first ten pages, with a covering letter. He rang me to request more of it, and afterwards said, 'Well I loved it, but of course I would!'”
Why did you choose Tablo Publishing?
“They are risk-takers who are also trying to innovate publishing. They are based in Melbourne and our relationship has been entirely online; a very modern business! This was the scariest part of bringing the book to life. A big exercise in trust. I had an epiphany during a massage: I realised that the bots I thought I was dealing with were real people, despite their almost 'inhuman' courteousness. Damien Daunt really cares about his clients and is unfailingly polite. Tablo also has the advantage of online ordering visibility when it comes to distribution. Thanks to Tablo it's now available through Booktopia, Amazon and Book Depository, and any bookshop can order it through Ingrams or Neilsens databases”
What's next?
“I’m writing another historical novel on the first performance of The Messiah, so I’m back in my second-favourite city again! I’m having a ball. Eighteenth century Dublin was much more fun than in the nineteenth! I’m in with a bunch of committed creatives - singers, actors, musicians, rather than social revolutionaries. It’s the same inner light, but this light feels more golden.”
At this point we both realised that our sixty minutes had gone over time, though I had one final question, before we 'zoomed off':
If this were made into a film, who would you cast as Vianney?
“Why Michael Fassbender of course!” she says with a laugh, “and he can be Michael Davitt as well!”
If you find yourself interested in reading The Country Of Our Dreams by Mary O’Connell, you can purchase it now by clicking this link.
Interview by Zita Fogarty
Editing by Matt Campbell
